You're Messing with My OCD, Fandom. You Wanna Fight?

[viciouswishes]

This afternoon, I've read two very well-written SGA gen team fics. These are gen fics, gen fics were the authors stuck a couple bits of G-rated McShep moments and PG-rated McShep innuendos in them. This messes up my categorization.

It also makes me curious just why those authors put them in there. Granted, not enough to ask said authors about their choice. I know that both authors are McShep shippers, as I've read and enjoyed their fic in the past, and that would be their answer. But it's not the authors that I'm interested in, it's the phenomena.

Really, it's fandom. I think it's fandom in that if it were a gen team fic, no matter how good it was, that it wouldn't get nearly as much attention. I think it's fandom in that I ran across a poorly written McShep rape fic that garnered more comments than most of the fic that ends up on my rec lists. This is also a very good argument for feedbacking, because if an author gets feedback then they (and other writers reading it) will write more of what's getting feedbacked in general.

(Lack of feedback is what I would label the #1 reason why femslash is as small and struggling as it is. Who wants to write something that's only going to get 2 comments, no matter how good or bad it is? (It makes me angry in the *meets people at con* "Oh, V.Wishes," says Con-Goer #1, "I love your femslash. It's so hot." "Thanks," I respond when I'm really thinking How the fuck would I ever know that you liked my femslash fic since you've never commented on it and I don't know who the hell you even are? *has this conversation with at least 3 other con-goers*))

And it's really freaking annoying me that I'm going to label these fics in my recs as gen and that someone somewhere is probably going to be pissed that they have a tiny bit of McShep stuck in there even if they are essentially entirely gen team fics.

Furthermore, I could change McShep to any other of fandom's OTPs and this would still ring true. I just happen to be reading SGA fic today. I don't like when my organization's screwed up because some things I like in little boxes.

Now my tea is cold.

Comments

[delgaserasca.livejournal.com]

This is part of a debate I was having with my fist about a year ago, and also something I was getting irritable over last week. But how to prompt feedback? And wh do ship ics get more comments than gen ones, or is it OTP vs. gen? And when did fandom become polarised by shipfic as opposed to gen - is this because it's the one area where canon is the least likely to kiss and tell, or is it because of the area of fandom we're in?

I think I'm answering my own questions. And, also, a slap on my own wrist because as much as I courage others to leave feedback, my ratio of feedback to no-feedback is 60:40 in the wrong direction.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I also wonder how to prompt more feedback. I see things like "more people need to write x rare pairing" and then when someone does write that (and a good fic at that), it doesn't get the feedback and perhaps from that person who was whining last week about it.

Maybe it's just human nature to be polarized. We all want to fit in so why would we not want to "fit it" with our fandom OTPs?

I'm a big fan of trying to make sure that every story I enjoy that I at least tell that author that I enjoyed it.

[iamtheenemy.livejournal.com]

This is part of a debate I was having with my fist about a year ago

Unintentional, I know, but that little typo had me giggling for like two minutes.

[janedavitt.livejournal.com]

Gen sells... but who's buying? :;wry smile::

I think for all we talk the good talk, most of us, and I'm definitely not excluding me, are here for the smut.

And although there'll always be true fans of gen and team fic, sure there will, without that seasoning of sex, or the promise of it, most will fill their plate from another bowl.

I found fanfic because I wanted a Buffy/Spike fix; not because I wanted a free tie-in novel...

But I get your frustration that it's hard to get a pure gen fic... especially in fandoms where the canon rarely is itself free of innuendo, het and slash related.

[beadattitude.livejournal.com]

What she said. I may look like an angel, but I go for the smut everytime. ::hangs head::

[romanyg.livejournal.com]

Being one of those authors that writes popular slash pairings, I'm aware that I get more feedback than better gen or femslash writers. I do feel a bit guilty about that at times.

And I can understand your frustration with what seems like slash inserted into a gen fic to make it sell. But I'm curious--someone on my flist brought this up recently but, unfortunately, I can't remember who--why does gen fic with incidental het still get labelled gen, but fic with incidental slash or femslash get relabelled as ship fic? I've seen this happen too. Why does fandom have different standards like that? Mild ship implications should render the fic gen or ship, depending on one's definition of gen/ensemble, across the board. But that's just me.

I am sorry that you're upset. *gentle hugs*

[monanotlisa.livejournal.com]

why does gen fic with incidental het still get labelled gen, but fic with incidental slash or femslash get relabelled as ship fic?

Depends on the incidental het.

If it's canon couples -- well, that's just the way the cookie crumbles. Canon determines the content of genfic, so any discrimination of slash's an entirely indirect one and a problem of shows, not fanfic writers: Only because there are so few canon gay couples, we get less gen with a touch of slash.

Mind how I say "less," because I can recall quite a few BtVS gen stories that did feature femslash, notably Willow and Tara in the background, just being their coupl-y selves. If you wrote QAF stories, this would flip entirely -- you'd have some character piece or big personal drama story that you'd righfully label gen, but all the relationships tangentially touched upon would be gay male ones.

Of course, incidental het that's NOT canon (i.e. John/Elizabeth or John/Teyla in SGA fic)? Then the answer's either that the abstract classification skills of many fans leave to be desired, or that the authors are unable to face the reality their woobie/doobie ship isn't in fact what the show writers have in mind...or both, of course. I even suspect "both" is the most common reason.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_minxy_/]

You know, I ran across that with some fics I was reccing, and I didn't understand why the author had called them team gen when there were clear John/Rodney moments in there. So I labelled them John/Rodney team sumfink. I had the opposite reaction, though, that these authors were taking slash as canon, or defining anything g rated as gen. It's just odd to me. What is the basis of their categorization?

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I think it might be a dumb G-rated equals Gen? I don't trust fandom that way. But for me, any story that's more team focused feels gen and sometimes I feel it takes away from the story to have shippy moments.

[penknife.livejournal.com]

It also makes me curious just why those authors put them in there. Granted, not enough to ask said authors about their choice.

Hmm; I've written basically-gen stories with brief references to pairings for a lot of reasons. Sometimes it's because I usually assume those characters are in a romantic relationship, and avoiding mentioning that in gen stories is sometimes harder than just letting it come up when it does. Other times it's because I'm trying to make a point about a character, and to make that point I need to show him in a relationship with somebody even if the story isn't a romance.

That's why I so often end up with long, flailing "pairing" tags that read something like "basically gen, with references to A/B and hints at X/Y/Z and Q/various other people." Or else just say "gen with references to slash and het relationships," which I'm leaning more and more toward on the grounds that if the pairings are totally not the point of the story, people can live with a certain amount of suspense.

It's really not, at least for me, an attempt to "sell" a gen story by including a romantic element; it's usually that I'm trying to talk about a character and can't talk about some aspect of that person without talking at least briefly about people they've had sex with.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I'm cool with acknowledgments of relationship. In Stargate, it's strange because canon is very anti-ship anyone and the main characters rarely have romance and if they do, it's not with each other and is largely off-screen. It's more when it's oddly shippy at the end after being very gen.

[velvetwhip.livejournal.com]

I am right there with you on the feedback. I can't tell you how many times the first time I've EVER heard from someone is when they complain I have not updated. Hello? How do I know anyone cares if no one tells me until I don't update for six months?


Gabrielle (who has to confess to disliking gen fics...sorry!)

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

No kidding. That's why I never do WIPs because it would make me so pissy.

[appomattoxco.livejournal.com]

I rarely write slash but I get feedback from time to time about my fic being either too shipy or too gen. Sometime this is different reviews for the same fic. I should be either hot or cold I guess. I have gone past my own uptight comfort point in one or two stories because I was writing for somebody. One day I may get brave and write f/f for you. It's sure to include water and be truely awful like all my smut.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Yeah, I would probably be tempted to have a super snarky comment if someone told me that my fic was too shippy or too gen.

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

It's probably that since the fics weren't about that pairing, they considered them gen fics.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Actually, one of them was labeled McKay/Sheppard and posted a ship fic and it wasn't. So these are a bit of my own labels.

[lyssie.livejournal.com]

I suspect part of the problem has to do with how much you consider text and how much is subtext--and one person's subtext may be another's blatant text. It also has to do with how much the canon itself lends to being twisted here, there, and everywhere else.

Gen is funny as a label, to me, because until I wandered into SG fandom, gen simply meant that a romance wasn't the point of the story. There were pairings and, sometimes, even fade-to-black sex scenes, but they weren't sex/romance/pairing free. Gen simply meant that the story was about more--usually action or adventure, with kissing on the side.

I mean, hell, I dare anyone to tell me Alicia McKenzie's "True Believers" is shipfic. It's long, involved, creates an entire universe, and still has Cable and Domino having sex and coming to terms with each other--but the point of the story isn't them. The point of the story is taking the little hints in canon about the Askani and expanding it in mind-boggling ways.

SG fandom, otoh, decided that gen meant "no sex or romance at all." And, boy HOWDY, has it taken that to extremes.

Het or slash, if there's any hint that someone might be sleeping with someone else, you'd better have labeled it, or someone will whine about it not being labeled as such. Even if its unintentional.

We all 'read' the canon in different ways, and we all regurgitate it back out through even more mental filters. And yes, you can put in unintentional subtext, because that's what you see in the show. And if you've got a good beta, they might even catch it.

(and now that I've rambled, I'm allowed to rant about the lack of feedback, and then smack myself for being part of the cause and go leave feedback somewhere.)

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

It is a strange balance and I do think that you can include some ship moments, but sometimes when it's oddly balanced that I feel thrown off.

I think in SG fandom it's taken to extreme because so many gen people (and f/f and (in SGA) het) really use it to escape fandom OTPs and hate said ship.

I'm not worried about subtext, which is subtext and can be argued either way. Heck, Toni Morrison is still pissed that people see lesbian subtext in Sula and bitched out some scholar.

[justhuman.livejournal.com]

I think you've got a couple of factors working here. In the 70s, fandom in general was primarily male and I have to believe that a lot of the fanfic authors were guys. As has been explored by more sociolgical studies than have a right to exist, guys want more action and girls want more emotions -- as a general rule, we all know there are exceptions.

What was it, Textual Poachers said that men want more of show and tend to be the creators of parody stories, recreation films, etc... It also said that nowadays women are the primary authors of fanfic because they tend to want to explore the margins, the what ifs -- what is beyond the canon.

I think that we see a general drift in fic from the early days of nearly all gen to the current days of overwhelming 'ship. And sure we have guys writing ship and girls writing gen, but the stats play out in general. So it doesn't surprise me that fandom leans toward ship.

I've written gen and inserted otp innuendo/slash, not because I wanted it to sell the fic. I'd be embarrassed to advertise what is essentially a gen fic as a ship fic -- why get the otp-er's all excited then let them down? I inculded the innuendo/slash because I wanted it, because they were my otp and because damn-it, I was disappointed it wasn't a ship fic. Sometimes fic happens without my otp - who'd have thought ;-) Another thought is that if I put some Daniel/Jack, Angel/Wes, Wes/Gunn, or John/Rodney G-rated stuff in the text am I out of canon? I mean yeah, if Jack nudges Daniel and says I picked up condoms for when we get back home from this god-forsaken mission - out of canon, but not taking anything away from the gen aspecgts of the fic if it stops more or less there. On the other hand, Jack sits next to Daniel, knees touching and shares a candy bar -- pure canon.

As someone who spent a lot of time writing the secondary pairings/characters, I didn't start writing the popular boys to get more feedback. The only time I've ever written Spike or Xander is because someone asked me to in a challenge. Just because I happened to find one story that I liked writing with Spike doesn't mean I'll ever write Spike again. I think authors write what they have a passion for.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Yeah, these fics weren't so much with the innuendo and with the actual slash such as kissing and saying that they were fucking when they were sharing rooms. One of them fell into the marked as slash and probably disappointed shippers. (In fact, I did notice with this one that it got less feedback than the author's normal track of OTP PWPs.) And there were definitely actions from characters doing things that they would only do with SOs.

I think authors write what they have a passion for.

I do think that authors write what they're interested in. But I also think that fandom squee, including levels of feedback, largely drives this passion. I mean, they're around people who have exact same interests all the time and it does fuel the fire. I see the same exact things when I'm hanging out with my family and they're watching football and my 5-year-old cousin's cheering for the same team as his father.

[marenfic.livejournal.com]

I can't really speak to the gen but I will speak to the feedback-- and agree. Although I get fairly lucky with femslash feedback from a few people on my flist who will read and feedback anything I write, the overall reaction is *much* lower. I love femslash and won't stop writing but I often wonder if people (avowed femslashers who I see around the block) are actually reading and not feedbacking because my femslash is deficient in some way. That could definitely be the case, or it could just be that it isn't getting read as much. I have no way of knowing.

What I have resolved to do is be better about feedbacking myself this year, even if it means one liners just to acknowledge that I read and enjoyed. And you know what? It's not that hard.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

but I often wonder if people (avowed femslashers who I see around the block) are actually reading and not feedbacking because my femslash is deficient in some way

I often feel the exact same way. I also wonder if some people don't read my fic because they read some of my stuff back in the day and it wasn't very good so I'm on their "don't read" list.

I'm pretty good at feedbacking if I read the story on LJ or somewhere else that has a simple feedback form. But those where there's just an e-mail addy or a form that I have to sign up to use, then I just suck. So that's one of my feedbacking goals, especially since as an author I even appreciate the one liner of "I enjoyed this."

[sparklebutch.livejournal.com]

I write... what I write... and I don't normally get lots of feed. Often I don't get feed at all. It's unhappy, but it's life, and it doesn't tend to change what I want to write. Sometimes I write specifically for a couple of friends who asked for something that I might not normally write, but that's more "prezzie" than "whoring for feed".

Why bad fics get good feed is one of the mysteries of humanity, and I don't want to ponder it lest my head explodes in an unpleasant sound.

Why gen has subtext in it? Can't tell you about this fic you referred to specifically, but if canon for example is "gen"-type canon, and it has the happy slashy subtext, it is still sadly not gay. Myself, most of what I write I consider slash to be default, and if things actually happen or don't happen between any characters, that's just a side thing.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

but that's more "prezzie" than "whoring for feed".

This is why you're not whom I'm referring to nor is your fic.

Why bad fics get good feed is one of the mysteries of humanity, and I don't want to ponder it lest my head explodes in an unpleasant sound.

Perhaps it is one of those mysteries. Like how being able to understand the depth and size of the vastness of the universe would make your head explode. Of course, the same can be said of commercial writing (i.e. Dan Brown).

Why gen has subtext in it?

I should really have been clearer as I'm not talking about subtext, but actual text that seems out-of-place and pasted on.

[entrenous88.livejournal.com]

Huh. My feeling is if the focus is on ensemble or far, far more on plot, there can be shippy moments of either het, slash, or femslash here and there, but it's still *gen*. So many of the 'ship focused stories are all about the 'ship. Granted, it does seem like people would like gen with no relationships (or maybe just hints of canon relationships?). But that seems odd to me. It's like...most fics have almost a romance novel quality to them, no matter what their other categories and bents and writing styles. Gen stories do not -- the relationship is not the focus, not the main thing -- but they needn't be relationship-free, imo.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I think I felt off-balance because they were team fics, but it's like suddenly there were bits of the romance novel stuck in there. And sometimes, I just get really bored of the romance novel (and how fandom constantly repeats itself and how I've read stories that I thought were plagiarized simply because it was the exact same scenario, even though there was no plagiarization), which I think also stands out in my adoration of break-up stories or one-night stands or stories where one character has UST for another, but the other character doesn't like them at way. (One of my favorite SGA gen stories is completely UST where the lusted-after character is like "I love you too, dude, but not in the kissing way.")

[siegeofangels.livejournal.com]

I think I tend to see McShep as default in SGA fic, probably because I've read way more fic than seen canon, and because that fic is overwhelmingly McShep. I'm not sure if that's come through in my writing--if I've attempted to write something gen but that came through as McShep--but I wouldn't be surprised. Hrm. Mental note to check through wips for this.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I think most fanfic assumes fandom OTPs as default, which is very limiting on fandom itself.

[lizardbeth-j.livejournal.com]

as one of those wacky people who use labels to avoid a large (non-canon) fan OTP, I definitely get irked if a story's labeled gen and there's shippy things in it. It's an unexpected and unpleasant surprise. I've never written anyone that they were wrong or anything, I just click out. At heart my problem is that once I've had the ship sprung on me, I don't trust the author not to keep going until the pair is keeping house and having babies, y'know? But these days, I just hope to have an honest pairing list, rating, and a good summary, since those labels are much more useful for me.

[tamerterra.livejournal.com]

*nod* I use the labels for the same reason - If the author does think that it's a gen fic in spite of their OTP, they can label it 'gen with a tiny bit of A/B'. -_-;;

[melannen.livejournal.com]

I tend to write otherwise-gen stories with a tiny bit of OTP inserted now and then because ... well, because I love gen, and most of the stories I want to tell end up being gen, but I still have ships that I love, and see as an essential part of how I write the characters. In fact, my personal definition of my own OTPs is "can't write gen fic in this fandom without at least mentioning the ship." And it has nothing to do with wanting readership, considering how obscure many of my OTPs are, but I feel exactly the same way about popular pairings. It's my story, and in my universe, these two characters are totally in love, even if they haven't realized it yet, abd I'm'a write 'em that way.

That said, I'm just as annoyed as anyone at gen stories that have suprise buttsecks pastede on yay for no visible reason except that the author seems to be trying to follow a formula.

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

It's the formula that concerns me and not necessarily even the two stories that set my rant off. It seems so stagnant. One time, I was reading a bunch of due South stories and I got to one where it was almost the exact same story as one I'd read earlier. So much so that I thought perhaps I'd stumbled upon a plagiarized story. But after further investigation, it wasn't plagiarized, it was just so formulaic that it seemed that I'd already read it.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Surely all this means is that you need to increase the precision of your classification system? If people are going to write whatever they want - and so far fandom has found no means to prevent them - then if not being able to slot everything into your existing categories is annoying you, it is the categories that are at fault rather than the writers or your initial desire to categorize. If 'gen with some slashy subtext' is being written then you clearly need a new category for it and all your problems are solved.

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

Gen is about plot, but plot isn't possible without characterisation - and characterisation isn't possible without a certain amount of acknowledgement that your characters have a sexuality, and have relationships, even if those things are not important to the story. So in order to be more like real life, Gen has to include the occasional little G rated moment.

At least for me, if I put in a bit of flirting or an acknowledgement that two characters are together in my Gen, it's not because I'm catering to fannish desires for shipping, it's because I'm trying to make the characters act as those characters would do. There are very few adult human beings who never think about sex or relationships at all, gen story or not.

[justhuman.livejournal.com]

Gen is about plot, but plot isn't possible without characterisation - and characterisation isn't possible without a certain amount of acknowledgement that your characters have a sexuality, and have relationships, even if those things are not important to the story. So in order to be more like real life, Gen has to include the occasional little G rated moment.

This sums up my view on gen perfectly. I think where it runs into problems is that often *canon* doesn't take the part about and characterisation isn't possible without a certain amount of acknowledgement that your characters have a sexuality, and have relationships, seriously.

SG-1 and SGA, for the most part, adhere to an old and twisted code of writing science fiction that says the characters do not have sexual organs for, lo, hero types have much more important things to be thinking about. Also, they don't go to the bathroom. Well, SG-1 and SGA do occassionaly touch on embarassing bodily functions, at least if Jack is in the room.

Occasionally the shows devote an episode or the subplot of an episode to a background relationship, but everything about that evaporatess in the next episode - with the possible exception of Sam/Pete, which was more ongoing. Other than that, the Gates really do keep with the Kirk model of sexual antics - hero of the day can hook up with alien babe of the day.

So I suppose people could say that in the Gate fandoms that any show of incidental romance and relationships is stepping away from gen. My thought is that the canon is not giving us well rounded characters because it ignores the sexual side of the characters.

Via metafandom

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

Is a basically gen fic with a G-rated noncanonical het moment still gen? I think so, and I don't want to apply a double standard to slash. The source material is usually considered "gen" even when it has major romantic subplots.

On a subtext front--if the gen source material has subtext, I like to include that subtext in my gen fanfiction. I like subtext; I put it into original fiction, too.

Why other people do it, I don't know; but that's why I blur the lines. I think the categories are somewhat artificial and ultimately have more to do with sensibility and focus than content.

Re: Via metafandom

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

This is not about slash vs het couples in gen or even uc vs canon couples. This is about fandom OTPs and how people use them formulaically and about how as a rec-er, I struggle with finding the appropriate label for stories because I tend to not believe that stories can defy labels.

Most people aren't talented enough writers to pull of actual subtext, especially when we generally all write from a tight 3rd person POV.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I'm not in SGA fandom, so clearly I'm missing something about your fandom's dynamics.

I tend to not believe that stories can defy labels.

...and I just don't agree there. Or about "most writers" being unable to pull off subtext from a tight 3rd person POV; I know many writers who do, consistently. I wouldn't bother reading fanfiction (or pro fiction) if "most writers" were unable to give their stories layers of meaning.

*shrug*

Will have to agree to disagree.

Also from metafandom

[aris-tgd.livejournal.com]

Well, I suppose I'm one of those gen writings who puts pairings in a story, but I don't write SGA, so I suppose the character dynamics are different there. I didn't think of putting a pairing list on my Babylon 5 Novella Of Doom because it honestly didn't occur to me. In B5, the romantic entanglements of the characters are organic developments over the course of the show, and assuming that the characters aren't going to hook up with anyone else feels more wrong than assuming they do.

It wasn't until I got more involved in fandom in general on LJ that I figured out that people actually don't like reading certain pairings in anything, that people actually get upset about such things. And that maybe a Morden/Ivanova pairing label would have been appreciated. And yet... the point of gen, I figure, is to have a story that isn't about a relationship. And I've seen really plotty pairing stories, ones that have lots of action and all the other characters involved deeply, that are still definitely About The Pairing. And I've seen gen stories that have a romance element. But there's still a huge grey area.

I think part of what it comes down to is fan communication, and how fanfic is used for that. Hence the great warning label debates.

But I suppose my main comment is, I don't put relationships in my gen stories to get more readers, I put relationships in my gen stories because I see relationships developing as part of the adventure.

Re: Also from metafandom

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

I'm also a fan of B5, so I can see where you're coming from. B5 definitely has it's epic romances and heartbreaks right in canon.

Stargate is definitely a different bird. There is little to no romance and they never hook up the main characters with each other. (Only in a few crazy AU canons that were immediately erased.) There's no John/Delenn or even Ivanova/Marcus UST equivalent.

Coming in late via Metafandom

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

But I just wanted to toss in my 2 cents. I have always thought the definition of "gen" included "strives to be close to the original source material in feel." That's why I think it's okay to class a story as "gen" if it has background canonical relationships (as long as they're not the main focus of the story--that would put the story into the shipfic category). However, it would bother me if a story was labeled gen which assumed a non-canonical relationship in the background, no matter whether the relationship in question was slash or het.

Not to say that people shouldn't write stories like that, just that I don't think the term "gen" should be applied to them.

Re: Coming in late via Metafandom

[viciouswishes.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughts. :)